incredible that people can see an actual genocide livestreamed for 13 months on every social media platform available, and STILL think anything comparable to that is happening in China. absolutely mindboggling.
The U.S. has spy satellites that can read a license plate. China could have total control over every camera in their country (lmao) and they wouldn’t be able to hide a genocide.
do you think Israel, with one of the most advanced security apparatuses in the world, doesn’t also have methods to censor evidence? and yet, all of this evidence still flows. insane, China has 1.4 billion people, all with cell phones, all with access to TikTok and VPNs, and there’s not a single picture or video of mass graves or camps or starvation campaigns or religious persecution. is China just uniquely good at censorship? is every Chinese citizen just brainwashed and can’t think for themselves?? or are you just repeating cold-war style CIA think-tank talking points about a geopolitical rival because you refuse to investigate for yourself?
Okay then why am I accused of it while not qualifying. Seems like that’s not how it’s used by liberals, almost like this isn’t the colloquial definition
Do you deny the genocide happening in China or in Ukraine? Then you are a tankie.
Do you believe that claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence? Then you’re a tankie.
Some people have this idea that if a claim involves genocide, then it gets to bypass the entire process of investigating a claim, because it’s technically “genocide denial,” so like if someone said “France is committing genocide against Belgians!” you’d just have to accept it without question. In fact, it’s the opposite, more extreme claims require more solid evidence.
Since we’re on .ml though, we don’t have to deal with such absurd censorship standards, and I’m free to point out the fact that the whole “Uighur genocide” narrative is just unsubstantiated propaganda, coming almost entirely from one crackpot named Adrian Zenz. And at this point it’s largely outdated propaganda, since the narrative has largely quietly disappeared from the news after the claims about it couldn’t be verified.
You’re welcome to prove me wrong though. You know, just show me the bodies. How long has it allegedly been going on at this point? We can see what an ongoing genocide looks like by what’s happening in Gaza. Strange how there aren’t any similar images coming out of Xinjiang, isn’t it?
I mean, you are aware that genocide doesn’t have to involve mass-killing of a population, right? Causing them serious bodily or mental harm with the goal of destroying that separate culture, i.e. in reeducation camps can still fulfill that definition.
Has there ever been a genocide in history where no one was killed?
Honestly, if we’re going to use such standards and definitions that a “nonviolent genocide” is possible, then I’m not sure I understand what makes such a thing wrong. In Japan, the number of people who believe in and practice Shinto is in decline, and more and more people are paying for Western style weddings, so temples are struggling to keep their doors open. Is that an inherently bad thing? Is that genocide? How about in the context of the Allies pressuring the emperor to renounce his claims to divinity, undermining a major aspect of Shinto beliefs? Because it seems to me like that did more good than harm. Does that mean I support the (mostly) “nonviolent genocide” of Imperial Japanese culture?
Or perhaps a better example: After 9/11, there was a wave of hate crimes against Muslims, the US extrajudicially detained people (primarily Muslim) without trial and subjected them to numerous human rights abuses, and there were many people talking about how, “Islam is a religion of violence,” and about “Turning the desert to glass,” and the country started two wars with Muslim countries in which about a million people were killed. Did that constitute a genocide? Why or why not?
Honestly, if we’re going to use such standards and definitions that a “nonviolent genocide” is possible, then I’m not sure I understand what makes such a thing wrong. In Japan, the number of people who believe in and practice Shinto is in decline, and more and more people are paying for Western style weddings, so temples are struggling to keep their doors open. Is that an inherently bad thing? Is that genocide?
Come on, you can do better than that.
People changing their culture on their own volition is obviously different from people being forced to by those in power.
How about in the context of the Allies pressuring the emperor to renounce his claims to divinity, undermining a major aspect of Shinto beliefs? Because it seems to me like that did more good than harm. Does that mean I support the (mostly) “nonviolent genocide” of Imperial Japanese culture?
That’s a slightly better point. The main argument for genocide though is, that a whole population is forced to erase their culture. The population of japan could have chosen to ignore the obviously forced statement and continued to believe in their faith. And it seems like they did if shinto is still a thing, even if it is struggling like many other religions are.
People changing their culture on their own volition is obviously different from people being forced to by those in power.
Is it? Genocide doesn’t necessarily have to be conducted by the state. If a a roving militia or gang of mercenaries went around killing a certain kind of people en masse, then it could still be considered genocide. So if we’re allowing for this idea of a bloodless genocide, then I’m not sure it’s obvious how non-state actors taking nonviolent actions that cause the decline of a culture don’t meet your definition.
The main argument for genocide though is, that a whole population is forced to erase their culture.
“Forced,” but not through killing.
There’s often a disconnect between first generation immigrants and their kids, who often end up adopting the culture they live in over their home culture through various social pressures. The fact that the US has road signs only in English forces people to learn English, doesn’t it? Are those road signs genocide? If public schools fail to make accommodations in terms of language, if they teach history from a different perspective than what their parents grew up with, is that genocide?
It’s absurd. What a coincidence that the first “nonviolent genocide” in history happens to come from the US’s chief geopolitical rival. It’s a dilution of the word for political reasons that attempts to put much less bad things on the same level as the mass extermination of a people. The primary reason that genocide is wrong is the violence accociated with it.
The population of japan could have chosen to ignore the obviously forced statement and continued to believe in their faith. And it seems like they did if shinto is still a thing
No, they did not. The emperor’s divinity was one aspect of Shinto, and a significant one, but Shinto was never like a monotheistic tradition.
If a a roving militia or gang of mercenaries went around killing a certain kind of people en masse, then it could still be considered genocide. So if we’re allowing for this idea of a bloodless genocide, then I’m not sure it’s obvious how non-state actors taking nonviolent actions that cause the decline of a culture don’t meet your definition.
I think it is pretty obvious. Is force involved, e.g. making it punishable to use your inhereted language, incarcerting people for praying to their god, taking your kids away for teaching them about your culture, …? Then it might be a genocide. Force does not need to be lethal to still be able to eradicate a culture.
Are other cultures influencing your culture by existing and interacting with your culture and the cultures change because of that? Then no, this definitely isn’t genocide. Which should answer the other “questions” you posed. If you are a minority in another culture you might have a harder time keeping your culture alive. But as long as there aren’t any explicit actions/sanctions against you doing your thing there isn’t a problem there.
The population of japan could have chosen to ignore the obviously forced statement and continued to believe in their faith. And it seems like they did if shinto is still a thing
No, they did not. The emperor’s divinity was one aspect of Shinto, and a significant one, but Shinto was never like a monotheistic tradition.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. They didn’t have the option? They didn’t do it? And if the divinity of the emperor wasn’t the only thing keeping up shinto why does it matter that much then, that you liken it to a genocide?
But as long as there aren’t any explicit actions/sanctions against you doing your thing there isn’t a problem there.
Are there explicit actions/sanctions against Uighurs practicing Islam, or other aspects of their culture?
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. They didn’t have the option? They didn’t do it?
I’m saying that modern practitioners of Shinto don’t consider the emperor divine.
And if the divinity of the emperor wasn’t the only thing keeping up shinto why does it matter that much then, that you liken it to a genocide?
What an interesting perspective. So what you’re saying is, if the Chinese government were to recognize Islam as one of its major, protected religions, but restrict certain radical teachings and versions of it, then it wouldn’t be genocide.
I’m saying that modern practitioners of Shinto don’t consider the emperor divine.
So they were able to continue to live their culture without being individually forced to do anything? Great, then thats not genocide.
What an interesting perspective. So what you’re saying is, if the Chinese government were to recognize Islam as one of its major, protected religions, but restrict certain radical teachings and versions of it, then it wouldn’t be genocide.
The better analogy would be to allow the chinese government to force one person to say “I am not divine”. Let’s say they were able to revive the prophet and make him say these words. Yes that would shatter the faith of a lot of people and how they deal with that is pretty much no-ones business. And it wouldn’t be genocide if they all turned away from their faith after that.
Oh, you mean like what the Ukrainian coup government was doing to the people in the east (Donbas) for years before Russia even entered the conflict? Yes, there is a strong argument to be made that genocide is the term we should use with regard to what Ukraine was attempting to do to the Russian-speaking population in their country.
You know what, I’m going to refer you to your fellow .ml comrade and you can discuss whether this is or is not genocide. If what happenend in Eastern Ukrain was genocide, then what is happening to the Uygurs is definitely also genocide. But if what is happening to the Uygurs can’t be genocide, then what has been happening in Ukraine also can’t be genocide. Please keep me updated on any results you two produce :)
Has there ever been a genocide in history where no one was killed?
Honestly, if we’re going to use such standards and definitions that a “nonviolent genocide” is possible, then I’m not sure I understand what makes such a thing wrong. In Japan, the number of people who believe in and practice Shinto is in decline, and more and more people are paying for Western style weddings, so temples are struggling to keep their doors open. Is that an inherently bad thing? Is that genocide? How about in the context of the Allies pressuring the emperor to renounce his claims to divinity, undermining a major aspect of Shinto beliefs? Because it seems to me like that did more good than harm. Does that mean I support the (mostly) “nonviolent genocide” of Imperial Japanese culture?
If what happenend in Eastern Ukrain was genocide, then what is happening to the Uygurs is definitely also genocide. But if what is happening to the Uygurs can’t be genocide, then what has been happening in Ukraine also can’t be genocide.
What the hell are you talking about? Ukraine was launching artillery shells at civilian targers in Eastern Ukraine. How is that nonviolent?
While there are many systemic issues that result in the disproportionate mass incarceration of African Americans, one needs to recognize this isn’t done to eradicate them. The US needs and uses them to make the poor fight each other rather than unite and fight the rich.
One also needs to recognize that the US does not incarerate them just for being black. They have created a system that forces poor people into criminality and that also makes african americans disproportionally poor. It’s deeply racist but there are still differences.
But I’m glad you agree it’s a violent thing to do.
Eastern Ukrain was genocide, then what is happening to the Uygurs is definitely also genocide.
Except in Ukraine people did die and their heritage and language were being actively suppressed, etc. We know this because it is documented all over, even in pictures on the net. These specific things are readily confirmable. It was even a large impetus for a broader war, as hopefully you’re aware. There is zero question that Ukrainian nazis were shelling Russian-speaking civilians in the Donbas and that Ukraine as a state was passing laws detrimental to Russian speakers.
In Xinjiang, no such evidence exists because nothing of the sort happened. It’s based on a lie dreamed up by one Christian fundamentalist Adrian Zenz. Every source on this “genocide” traces back to him, and none of the claims are confirmable. Even to the UN! In fact you, yes, even you if you have the means to travel, can go there today and see for yourself that the Uyghur population is thriving and they will laugh if you tell them they’re being genocided. I’ll leave the academic discussion for exactly where to draw the line for the definition of the term genocide to others for now. But based on how you were defining it, Ukraine was committing genocide, but no, China was doing quite the opposite by encouraging ethnic diversity. Again, go see for yourself like this person did: Oh yeah, just look at all that genociding going on!
Several countries, including the US, UK, Canada and the Netherlands, have accused China of committing genocide - defined by international convention, external as the “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.
The declarations follow reports that, as well as interning Uyghurs in camps, China has been forcibly mass sterilising Uyghur women to suppress the population, separating children from their families, and attempting to break the cultural traditions of the group.
The US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has said China is committing “genocide and crimes against humanity”.
The UK parliament declared in April 2021 that China was committing a genocide in Xinjiang.
A UN human rights committee in 2018 said it had credible reports that China was holding up to a million people in “counter-extremism centres” in Xinjiang.
The Australian Strategic Policy Institute, external found evidence in 2020 of more than 380 of these “re-education camps” in Xinjiang, an increase of 40% on previous estimates.
Analysis of data contained in the latest police documents, called the Xinjiang Police Files, showed that almost 23,000 residents - or more than 12% of the adult population of one county - were in a camp or prison in the years 2017 and 2018. If applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean the detention of more than 1.2 million Uyghur and other Turkic minority adults.
The UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the files contained “shocking details of China’s human rights violations”.
Earlier, leaked documents known as the China Cables made clear that the camps were intended to be run as high security prisons, with strict discipline and punishments.
People who have managed to escape the camps have reported physical, mental and sexual torture. Women have spoken of mass rape and sexual abuse.
Also, yes I am aware of the reasons putin brought forward to start an attack on ukraine with the goal of erasing that country from the landmap. Go ahead and tell me he wouldn’t pass laws “detrimental” to the people of Ukraine if he succeeds with his invasion.
The only countries claiming there’s a genocide, and that they’re so concerned about the treatment of Muslims in China, are the ones who spent the last 20 years slaughtering millions of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You may call me crazy but this doesnt sound like it all traces back to just one guy
That’s because you didn’t click the links on the article to see where the claims come from. That article cites Adrian Zenz, they just wized up enough to leave his name buried in the links. But you’re right that not every claim traces back to him, to be fair, we also have, uh, US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, the UK parliament, and some random Australian think tank.
Summary of this comment: “Do you recognize reality and not believe the ocean of NATO propaganda we’re all awash in? Then you’re a tankie. Do you reject a bunch of bullshit I made up using fascist-invented terms like “red fash” and “totalitarian”? Then you’re a tankie.”
Ok, I’m a definitely tankie then. It must suck not to be one and be stuck in these pitiful, childish delusions, and labeling people “orks” and ascribing people who value truth with what you think is an epithet. Some grade A fuckin’ cringe right here.
Behold, fellow lemmy browsers: here^ we see the scratched liberal as their mask starts to slip. Not unlike the “UHMUHRICA! Love it er LEAVE it!” style of chud. They have a similar simplistic and deeply uncurious faulty view of the world, a view desperately clung to even when they are shown it is undeniably false, for self reflection is too frightening a concept for them even to consider.
I think you’re confusing electoral lesser-evilism with genuine support. I’m as fed up with ‘Israel can do nothing wrong because history’ types as the next guy, but they’re hardly a majority
I just don’t believe the vast majority of “lesser evil” Democrats because I saw them turn around and enthusiastically cheer on Harris, and then act like someone shot their dog when she lost. If you’re reluctantly supporting 99% Hitler over 100% Hitler, you don’t go to 99% Hitler rallies and you don’t care when he loses.
These are the real beliefs of the supposedly “reluctant” Harris supporters who say they’re only supporting her because she’s a “lesser evil.” It’s the classic motte-and-bailey tactic, defending a much weaker form of their beliefs when under criticism than what they actually believe.
The “finding out” should be that you lost while supporting genocide. Shouldn’t have done that, huh? Not very strategic or “adult in the room”, was it?
Did you miss all of the people supporting a lesser evil Harris genocide? Many are in this thread right now trying to preemptively pass blame for everything Trump does onto those who opposed the genocide and refused to vote for its committers. This is in no way a pro-Palestinian space, either. This thread has many examples of “the pro Palestinian protesters were a Russian plot!” and, “hope you enjoy Palestinians dying, non-voters!” sentiments.
Your comment is bizarre. I wouldn’t ban anyone over it. But if you had spammed that multiple times as alleged in the ban, fair enough.
For the record I have also been banned for stupid reasons on .ml
For example when this power hungry mod said some bullshit and got downvoted to hell for it, I commented and got a lot of upvotes. So as is customary in .ml they censored my comment because they disagree because I was “rationalising fascism” which is completely ridiculous.
Obviously I called them out and called them a fascist, because I know you guys think that’s the absolute worst insult ever (which is unfortunately diminished by the fact that you use it for literally everything). It’s honestly quite insane how tankies honestly seems to believe everything Putin says.
If you are demanding everyone vote for the people bypassing Congress to send more bombs to the obviously grotesque war criminal country, people are gonna think you support them, because you are.
Do you see me demanding anything? I’m literally only describing what has been my experience around Lemmy, and that your widespread genocide support is just your twisting of what people are actually saying. I think your hostile comment proves my point
I was using ‘you’ rhetorically rather than accusing you of anything. IDK how you see that as a hostile one. I’m just explaining why people get rubbed the wrong way by the the vote blue brigade.
I understand that you hate Marxists, and yes, you’re most likely a liberal. It isn’t a coincidence that leftists tend to have similar stances to each other, when working from the same theoretical framework similar conclusions follow.
Person A: Expresses a liberal perspective “Watch as this person calls me a Lib”
Person B: “… yes, that is common liberal perspective”
Person A: “Called it”
I mean that would mean I believe that they’re imperialists supporting the case of white supremacy - I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to claim that most USA supported conflicts have the purpose of benefitting the western world, which is based on white supremacy - and most likely are either politicaly illiterate and are unaware (willingly or by ignorance) of what USA is doing, or are sociopaths. They’re not tankies by virtue of not being pro post soviet dictatorships, but when it comes to the callousness towards loss of innocent human lives, they’re uh… Pretty bad. I’m not making a comparison though, I feel that’s like asking which of two shits stinks worse, and we can clearly see that both defecators had varied and distinctive diets.
In that case the term Tankie could not be applied to China as the original meaning of the word Tankies could only apply to the Soviet Union.
What I have always understood to be the implication is “people justifying and usually denying war crimes from a government or group which aligns with their political ideology”.
Most often those people do not care about the war crimes. They think a government and/or government ideology is awesome and therefore will excuse any war crimes because it is for the greater good/lesser evil.
And honestly speaking I’m not sure myself if “tankie” should apply to China, seeing how most of their bad shit happend internally with the notable exceptions of Taiwan and Hong Kong, which are a stretch. There is a distinctive difference between Russia and China, despite both belonging to same political alliance and both have a dictatorial leaderships. Hating west/USA and loving either of them would make one a campist, but I’m not sure about that qualifyng as tankie. Naturally, most campists support both, so by that definition it would make them tankies.
While your definition does describe tankies as well, I always understood it to be a derogatory term for the general authoritarian communist/pseudo-communist block more so than applying to all national supermacists.
should apply to China, seeing how most of their bad shit happend internally with the notable exceptions of Taiwan and Hong Kong
Those are still internal to China. I can understand that people are ignorant of the fact that Taiwan is part of China given the rhetoric around it and the fact that it is still provisionally ruled by the ousted rump-state nationalist government that still thinks it’s the legitimate ruler of Mongolia too. Taiwan IS part of China, but there IS something being actually being contested there. But Hong Kong? Hong Kong unambiguously is in China, it’s just one of the Special Autonomous Regions, but even they themselves consider themselves part of China, not “external” to it.
Also, it’s not “bad shit,” it’s treating reactionaries with relatively kid gloves.
There is a distinctive difference between Russia and China, despite both belonging to same political alliance and both have a dictatorial leaderships.
China does not have a “dictorial” leadership. As for Russia, well it’s leadership is no more “dictorial” than that of any western “democracy” leadership. Their “political alliance” is still relatively loose, and the only way in which they could be considered part of the same “axis” (not a word you used, but still kind of implied) is because the US’s belligerence against them both has driven them closer together.
Hating west/USA and loving either of them would make one a campist,
Hating the west/USA is just a matter of simultaneously knowing history and being a compassionate, empathetic human being. And I would bet that most of the people you would say “love” either Russia or China rather just support their actions and goals, probably very critically in the case of Russia, and do so for rational reasons based on the true behavior of those countries. That is not campism. Campism is when you support (or “love”) a country not because its actions genuinely align with your own ideals or ideology but purely because you identify with it. Interestingly, it largely stems from a failure of self-awareness. There absolutely are campists for Russia and for China, I am not denying that at all. But despite what the libs here say, you won’t find very many of them on lemmy. Most of the people on lemmy support these countries for very rational reasons regarding ideology and their geopolitical conduct.
but I’m not sure about that qualifyng as tankie.
I always understood it to be a derogatory term for the general authoritarian communist/pseudo-communist block more so than applying to all national supermacists.
This is more or less correct. Most campists on lemmy support the US/NATO and they certainly aren’t tankies by anyone’s standards. You’re right about it always having been solely a derogatory term for certain radical leftists, nowadays usually those who support countries whose governments are fighting western imperialism. But like many others have said in this thread, it is becoming so diluted that merely not supporting the fascist DNC has been enough to get a person labeled a tankie. The silly “authoritarian” part mostly came into play once liberals started using the term and (as usual) completely not understanding its origins (origins that have to do with a specific uprising in Hungary in the 1950s).
That’s not relevant to being a tankie as the US, Israel, and other states backing Israel, aren’t claiming they’re building communism or are the successor state to another which claimed to be building communism. It’s the part where communism is an excuse that means the bad things didn’t really happen and would be fine even if they did that makes tankie-ism its own distinct thing.
How does supporting one genocide stop the other? Who said that I somehow support the US? Who says I am even american, and not someone who personally has to deal with the consequences of tankie horseshit?
Russia does bomb regularly bomb infrastructure such as energy plants. But Russia is not mass bombing schools, hospitals and refugee camps. Every time they do it it is front page news because 2 people died. Meanwhile Israel bombs a school killing 20 people every single day.
If Russia did what America and Israel are doing in Gaza, the front page of newspapers would be filled with sob stories and gore. And Hamas would be praised as brave resistance fighters against the modern Nazis.
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Lol I get called a tanky for criticizing the Democratic party and Israel and that’s literally the only time I’ve ever seen it used.
Conflating it with supporting a government that hasn’t existed since I was 3 is downright hysterical.
I get called a tanky by people who literally support the group using tanks.
Straight from the horses’ mouth, a tankie is anyone left of Hitler. You’re literally calling humans ‘orks’. You are a Nazi.
„nazi“, lol
incredible that people can see an actual genocide livestreamed for 13 months on every social media platform available, and STILL think anything comparable to that is happening in China. absolutely mindboggling.
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The U.S. has spy satellites that can read a license plate. China could have total control over every camera in their country (lmao) and they wouldn’t be able to hide a genocide.
do you think Israel, with one of the most advanced security apparatuses in the world, doesn’t also have methods to censor evidence? and yet, all of this evidence still flows. insane, China has 1.4 billion people, all with cell phones, all with access to TikTok and VPNs, and there’s not a single picture or video of mass graves or camps or starvation campaigns or religious persecution. is China just uniquely good at censorship? is every Chinese citizen just brainwashed and can’t think for themselves?? or are you just repeating cold-war style CIA think-tank talking points about a geopolitical rival because you refuse to investigate for yourself?
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Okay then why am I accused of it while not qualifying. Seems like that’s not how it’s used by liberals, almost like this isn’t the colloquial definition
Do you believe that claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence? Then you’re a tankie.
Some people have this idea that if a claim involves genocide, then it gets to bypass the entire process of investigating a claim, because it’s technically “genocide denial,” so like if someone said “France is committing genocide against Belgians!” you’d just have to accept it without question. In fact, it’s the opposite, more extreme claims require more solid evidence.
Since we’re on .ml though, we don’t have to deal with such absurd censorship standards, and I’m free to point out the fact that the whole “Uighur genocide” narrative is just unsubstantiated propaganda, coming almost entirely from one crackpot named Adrian Zenz. And at this point it’s largely outdated propaganda, since the narrative has largely quietly disappeared from the news after the claims about it couldn’t be verified.
You’re welcome to prove me wrong though. You know, just show me the bodies. How long has it allegedly been going on at this point? We can see what an ongoing genocide looks like by what’s happening in Gaza. Strange how there aren’t any similar images coming out of Xinjiang, isn’t it?
I mean, you are aware that genocide doesn’t have to involve mass-killing of a population, right? Causing them serious bodily or mental harm with the goal of destroying that separate culture, i.e. in reeducation camps can still fulfill that definition.
Has there ever been a genocide in history where no one was killed?
Honestly, if we’re going to use such standards and definitions that a “nonviolent genocide” is possible, then I’m not sure I understand what makes such a thing wrong. In Japan, the number of people who believe in and practice Shinto is in decline, and more and more people are paying for Western style weddings, so temples are struggling to keep their doors open. Is that an inherently bad thing? Is that genocide? How about in the context of the Allies pressuring the emperor to renounce his claims to divinity, undermining a major aspect of Shinto beliefs? Because it seems to me like that did more good than harm. Does that mean I support the (mostly) “nonviolent genocide” of Imperial Japanese culture?
Or perhaps a better example: After 9/11, there was a wave of hate crimes against Muslims, the US extrajudicially detained people (primarily Muslim) without trial and subjected them to numerous human rights abuses, and there were many people talking about how, “Islam is a religion of violence,” and about “Turning the desert to glass,” and the country started two wars with Muslim countries in which about a million people were killed. Did that constitute a genocide? Why or why not?
Come on, you can do better than that.
People changing their culture on their own volition is obviously different from people being forced to by those in power.
That’s a slightly better point. The main argument for genocide though is, that a whole population is forced to erase their culture. The population of japan could have chosen to ignore the obviously forced statement and continued to believe in their faith. And it seems like they did if shinto is still a thing, even if it is struggling like many other religions are.
Is it? Genocide doesn’t necessarily have to be conducted by the state. If a a roving militia or gang of mercenaries went around killing a certain kind of people en masse, then it could still be considered genocide. So if we’re allowing for this idea of a bloodless genocide, then I’m not sure it’s obvious how non-state actors taking nonviolent actions that cause the decline of a culture don’t meet your definition.
“Forced,” but not through killing.
There’s often a disconnect between first generation immigrants and their kids, who often end up adopting the culture they live in over their home culture through various social pressures. The fact that the US has road signs only in English forces people to learn English, doesn’t it? Are those road signs genocide? If public schools fail to make accommodations in terms of language, if they teach history from a different perspective than what their parents grew up with, is that genocide?
It’s absurd. What a coincidence that the first “nonviolent genocide” in history happens to come from the US’s chief geopolitical rival. It’s a dilution of the word for political reasons that attempts to put much less bad things on the same level as the mass extermination of a people. The primary reason that genocide is wrong is the violence accociated with it.
No, they did not. The emperor’s divinity was one aspect of Shinto, and a significant one, but Shinto was never like a monotheistic tradition.
I think it is pretty obvious. Is force involved, e.g. making it punishable to use your inhereted language, incarcerting people for praying to their god, taking your kids away for teaching them about your culture, …? Then it might be a genocide. Force does not need to be lethal to still be able to eradicate a culture.
Are other cultures influencing your culture by existing and interacting with your culture and the cultures change because of that? Then no, this definitely isn’t genocide. Which should answer the other “questions” you posed. If you are a minority in another culture you might have a harder time keeping your culture alive. But as long as there aren’t any explicit actions/sanctions against you doing your thing there isn’t a problem there.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. They didn’t have the option? They didn’t do it? And if the divinity of the emperor wasn’t the only thing keeping up shinto why does it matter that much then, that you liken it to a genocide?
Are there explicit actions/sanctions against Uighurs practicing Islam, or other aspects of their culture?
I’m saying that modern practitioners of Shinto don’t consider the emperor divine.
What an interesting perspective. So what you’re saying is, if the Chinese government were to recognize Islam as one of its major, protected religions, but restrict certain radical teachings and versions of it, then it wouldn’t be genocide.
So they were able to continue to live their culture without being individually forced to do anything? Great, then thats not genocide.
The better analogy would be to allow the chinese government to force one person to say “I am not divine”. Let’s say they were able to revive the prophet and make him say these words. Yes that would shatter the faith of a lot of people and how they deal with that is pretty much no-ones business. And it wouldn’t be genocide if they all turned away from their faith after that.
Oh, you mean like what the Ukrainian coup government was doing to the people in the east (Donbas) for years before Russia even entered the conflict? Yes, there is a strong argument to be made that genocide is the term we should use with regard to what Ukraine was attempting to do to the Russian-speaking population in their country.
You know what, I’m going to refer you to your fellow .ml comrade and you can discuss whether this is or is not genocide. If what happenend in Eastern Ukrain was genocide, then what is happening to the Uygurs is definitely also genocide. But if what is happening to the Uygurs can’t be genocide, then what has been happening in Ukraine also can’t be genocide. Please keep me updated on any results you two produce :)
https://lemmy.ml/comment/15069887
What the hell are you talking about? Ukraine was launching artillery shells at civilian targers in Eastern Ukraine. How is that nonviolent?
How is incarcerating a significant portion of an ethnic group non-violent?
Good question! Do you consider the disproportionate mass incarceration of African Americans a genocide?
While there are many systemic issues that result in the disproportionate mass incarceration of African Americans, one needs to recognize this isn’t done to eradicate them. The US needs and uses them to make the poor fight each other rather than unite and fight the rich.
One also needs to recognize that the US does not incarerate them just for being black. They have created a system that forces poor people into criminality and that also makes african americans disproportionally poor. It’s deeply racist but there are still differences.
But I’m glad you agree it’s a violent thing to do.
Except in Ukraine people did die and their heritage and language were being actively suppressed, etc. We know this because it is documented all over, even in pictures on the net. These specific things are readily confirmable. It was even a large impetus for a broader war, as hopefully you’re aware. There is zero question that Ukrainian nazis were shelling Russian-speaking civilians in the Donbas and that Ukraine as a state was passing laws detrimental to Russian speakers.
In Xinjiang, no such evidence exists because nothing of the sort happened. It’s based on a lie dreamed up by one Christian fundamentalist Adrian Zenz. Every source on this “genocide” traces back to him, and none of the claims are confirmable. Even to the UN! In fact you, yes, even you if you have the means to travel, can go there today and see for yourself that the Uyghur population is thriving and they will laugh if you tell them they’re being genocided. I’ll leave the academic discussion for exactly where to draw the line for the definition of the term genocide to others for now. But based on how you were defining it, Ukraine was committing genocide, but no, China was doing quite the opposite by encouraging ethnic diversity. Again, go see for yourself like this person did: Oh yeah, just look at all that genociding going on!
You may call me crazy but this doesnt sound like it all traces back to just one guy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
Also, yes I am aware of the reasons putin brought forward to start an attack on ukraine with the goal of erasing that country from the landmap. Go ahead and tell me he wouldn’t pass laws “detrimental” to the people of Ukraine if he succeeds with his invasion.
The UN doesn’t claim China is committing genocide, even in a report that in no way paints China in a good light. The delegation from 14 Muslim-majority countries that visited Xinjiang didn’t think there was a genocide, either.
The only countries claiming there’s a genocide, and that they’re so concerned about the treatment of Muslims in China, are the ones who spent the last 20 years slaughtering millions of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That’s because you didn’t click the links on the article to see where the claims come from. That article cites Adrian Zenz, they just wized up enough to leave his name buried in the links. But you’re right that not every claim traces back to him, to be fair, we also have, uh, US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, the UK parliament, and some random Australian think tank.
Summary of this comment: “Do you recognize reality and not believe the ocean of NATO propaganda we’re all awash in? Then you’re a tankie. Do you reject a bunch of bullshit I made up using fascist-invented terms like “red fash” and “totalitarian”? Then you’re a tankie.”
Ok, I’m a definitely tankie then. It must suck not to be one and be stuck in these pitiful, childish delusions, and labeling people “orks” and ascribing people who value truth with what you think is an epithet. Some grade A fuckin’ cringe right here.
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Behold, fellow lemmy browsers: here^ we see the scratched liberal as their mask starts to slip. Not unlike the “UHMUHRICA! Love it er LEAVE it!” style of chud. They have a similar simplistic and deeply uncurious faulty view of the world, a view desperately clung to even when they are shown it is undeniably false, for self reflection is too frightening a concept for them even to consider.
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And if someone supports the American government which is committing a genocide in Gaza right now?
“support the American government” is not what I see around Lemmy
Try saying Joe Biden is committing genocide on lemmy.world and you will find a plethora of apologists.
I think you’re confusing electoral lesser-evilism with genuine support. I’m as fed up with ‘Israel can do nothing wrong because history’ types as the next guy, but they’re hardly a majority
I just don’t believe the vast majority of “lesser evil” Democrats because I saw them turn around and enthusiastically cheer on Harris, and then act like someone shot their dog when she lost. If you’re reluctantly supporting 99% Hitler over 100% Hitler, you don’t go to 99% Hitler rallies and you don’t care when he loses.
Supporting evidence:
I think Kamala Harris would be an objectively great president (1000 upvotes)
Kamala Harris is like Princess Leia and blaming her for Gaza is analogous to blaming Leia for Alderaan (1100 upvotes)
Kamala Harris is a “former prosecutor with a spotless record” (1200 upvotes)
These are the real beliefs of the supposedly “reluctant” Harris supporters who say they’re only supporting her because she’s a “lesser evil.” It’s the classic motte-and-bailey tactic, defending a much weaker form of their beliefs when under criticism than what they actually believe.
People are actively censoring and denying any responsibility from the Democrats regarding the genocide in Gaza.
People are utter the words “Kamala was not perfect” while she is an active participant in a genocide.
It is not “Israel can do nothing wrong because history”. Democrats are the main responsible party. Seemingly they can do no wrong because lesser evil.
Have you ever watched one of the dystopian Biden state department briefings? It is lie after lie after lie.
Any examples on Lemmy?
You can check the modlog on my account, this was from a couple months ago on Lemmy.world
Comments removed recently from TheOubliette for “misinformation,” which just means saying anything the .world mods personally disagree with
Your comment is bizarre. I wouldn’t ban anyone over it. But if you had spammed that multiple times as alleged in the ban, fair enough.
For the record I have also been banned for stupid reasons on .ml
For example when this power hungry mod said some bullshit and got downvoted to hell for it, I commented and got a lot of upvotes. So as is customary in .ml they censored my comment because they disagree because I was “rationalising fascism” which is completely ridiculous.
Obviously I called them out and called them a fascist, because I know you guys think that’s the absolute worst insult ever (which is unfortunately diminished by the fact that you use it for literally everything). It’s honestly quite insane how tankies honestly seems to believe everything Putin says.
Primarily lemmy.world
Some wild comments on /politics receiving upvotes there. People rebuking them get their comments removed and/or banned for ‘trolling’.
When one visit that place they would think Donald Trump is the current president who is personally strangling every child in Gaza.
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If you are demanding everyone vote for the people bypassing Congress to send more bombs to the obviously grotesque war criminal country, people are gonna think you support them, because you are.
Do you see me demanding anything? I’m literally only describing what has been my experience around Lemmy, and that your widespread genocide support is just your twisting of what people are actually saying. I think your hostile comment proves my point
I was using ‘you’ rhetorically rather than accusing you of anything. IDK how you see that as a hostile one. I’m just explaining why people get rubbed the wrong way by the the vote blue brigade.
Rubbed the wrong way is understandable, but that’s not supporting genocide. They’re not and I think you know that
You tend to see it more on Lemmy.world, less so on instances dominated by Leftists.
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I understand that you hate Marxists, and yes, you’re most likely a liberal. It isn’t a coincidence that leftists tend to have similar stances to each other, when working from the same theoretical framework similar conclusions follow.
Called it
Person A: Expresses a liberal perspective “Watch as this person calls me a Lib” Person B: “… yes, that is common liberal perspective” Person A: “Called it”
Called what?
lol hatred of leftists is more associated with fascists than liberals. Don’t flatter yourself.
What a way to call yourself a fascist uh
I mean that would mean I believe that they’re imperialists supporting the case of white supremacy - I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to claim that most USA supported conflicts have the purpose of benefitting the western world, which is based on white supremacy - and most likely are either politicaly illiterate and are unaware (willingly or by ignorance) of what USA is doing, or are sociopaths. They’re not tankies by virtue of not being pro post soviet dictatorships, but when it comes to the callousness towards loss of innocent human lives, they’re uh… Pretty bad. I’m not making a comparison though, I feel that’s like asking which of two shits stinks worse, and we can clearly see that both defecators had varied and distinctive diets.
In that case the term Tankie could not be applied to China as the original meaning of the word Tankies could only apply to the Soviet Union.
What I have always understood to be the implication is “people justifying and usually denying war crimes from a government or group which aligns with their political ideology”.
Most often those people do not care about the war crimes. They think a government and/or government ideology is awesome and therefore will excuse any war crimes because it is for the greater good/lesser evil.
And honestly speaking I’m not sure myself if “tankie” should apply to China, seeing how most of their bad shit happend internally with the notable exceptions of Taiwan and Hong Kong, which are a stretch. There is a distinctive difference between Russia and China, despite both belonging to same political alliance and both have a dictatorial leaderships. Hating west/USA and loving either of them would make one a campist, but I’m not sure about that qualifyng as tankie. Naturally, most campists support both, so by that definition it would make them tankies.
While your definition does describe tankies as well, I always understood it to be a derogatory term for the general authoritarian communist/pseudo-communist block more so than applying to all national supermacists.
Those are still internal to China. I can understand that people are ignorant of the fact that Taiwan is part of China given the rhetoric around it and the fact that it is still provisionally ruled by the ousted rump-state nationalist government that still thinks it’s the legitimate ruler of Mongolia too. Taiwan IS part of China, but there IS something being actually being contested there. But Hong Kong? Hong Kong unambiguously is in China, it’s just one of the Special Autonomous Regions, but even they themselves consider themselves part of China, not “external” to it.
Also, it’s not “bad shit,” it’s treating reactionaries with relatively kid gloves.
China does not have a “dictorial” leadership. As for Russia, well it’s leadership is no more “dictorial” than that of any western “democracy” leadership. Their “political alliance” is still relatively loose, and the only way in which they could be considered part of the same “axis” (not a word you used, but still kind of implied) is because the US’s belligerence against them both has driven them closer together.
Hating the west/USA is just a matter of simultaneously knowing history and being a compassionate, empathetic human being. And I would bet that most of the people you would say “love” either Russia or China rather just support their actions and goals, probably very critically in the case of Russia, and do so for rational reasons based on the true behavior of those countries. That is not campism. Campism is when you support (or “love”) a country not because its actions genuinely align with your own ideals or ideology but purely because you identify with it. Interestingly, it largely stems from a failure of self-awareness. There absolutely are campists for Russia and for China, I am not denying that at all. But despite what the libs here say, you won’t find very many of them on lemmy. Most of the people on lemmy support these countries for very rational reasons regarding ideology and their geopolitical conduct.
This is more or less correct. Most campists on lemmy support the US/NATO and they certainly aren’t tankies by anyone’s standards. You’re right about it always having been solely a derogatory term for certain radical leftists, nowadays usually those who support countries whose governments are fighting western imperialism. But like many others have said in this thread, it is becoming so diluted that merely not supporting the fascist DNC has been enough to get a person labeled a tankie. The silly “authoritarian” part mostly came into play once liberals started using the term and (as usual) completely not understanding its origins (origins that have to do with a specific uprising in Hungary in the 1950s).
That’s not relevant to being a tankie as the US, Israel, and other states backing Israel, aren’t claiming they’re building communism or are the successor state to another which claimed to be building communism. It’s the part where communism is an excuse that means the bad things didn’t really happen and would be fine even if they did that makes tankie-ism its own distinct thing.
So apologizing and supporting war crimes is fine as long as it is not communism?
Of course not, but it’s an unrelated not fine to whether or not someone’s a tankie.
That’s what Democrats have been telling me for the past 13 months
How does supporting one genocide stop the other? Who said that I somehow support the US? Who says I am even american, and not someone who personally has to deal with the consequences of tankie horseshit?
Your definition conveniently exempted America and countries such as Germany or the UK.
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Ah the hitlerite is ableist
Oh wait
All of them are
That is true. What the west is doing in Palestine is worse.
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Russia does bomb regularly bomb infrastructure such as energy plants. But Russia is not mass bombing schools, hospitals and refugee camps. Every time they do it it is front page news because 2 people died. Meanwhile Israel bombs a school killing 20 people every single day.
If Russia did what America and Israel are doing in Gaza, the front page of newspapers would be filled with sob stories and gore. And Hamas would be praised as brave resistance fighters against the modern Nazis.