At this point, “centrist” is slang for, “I want to argue for what I believe in under the guise of being the ‘Devils advocate’”.

I made this decision when I purchased a house… Or rather, the bank purchased it, I just live here and pay them instead of a landlord.

I went with DeWalt and I don’t really have any regrets. I had one of the really basic 12v drills from them for like 10+ years. It mostly rattled around my car’s trunk during that time. I’ve purchased two additional batteries for it, one was shortly after I bought it, so I’d always have a charged battery on hand, the other to keep on the drill. When I needed to swap, I’d just take the dead battery into my home at the end of the day and charge it overnight, then dump it back in the car the next day.

I used it mainly for computer stuff, since I work in that industry… Racking equipment in server racks, opening computers, etc. Rarely did I need to actually make holes or anything with it… The third battery was purchased when the original battery that came with it, stopped working. The drill and two remaining batteries still work fine, though I don’t really need/use them anymore.

I might “donate” it to a young relative someday, for now it collects dust in my basement.

When I replaced it, I got all 20v DeWalt everything. I bought a pack of tools that came with a couple of fairly basic battery chargers, a couple batteries, a hammer drill, impact driver, reciprocating saw, oscillating tool, a circular saw, and a portable light… It even came with a carry bag, which was promptly tossed in a corner and hasn’t been touched since, except to kick it further into the corner.

After a short while of owning the house, we added a small (additional) set of batteries… I think 3 more? And picked up lawn equipment that’s also 20v from DeWalt. A string trimmer (aka a “whipper snipper”), and a hedge trimmer. I feel like I’m forgetting something… Oh well.

The odd man out, so to speak, is the lawnmower, we ended up picking up a DeWalt mower, but it’s 20v/60v, so it will take either pack. We had all 20v so we just stuck with that.

Then, I think last year? DeWalt released a snowblower, but it’s 60v only. So we had to get specific batteries just for that. The 60v ones are compatible with the 20v tools, but the blower will only take the 60v packs, so we have two 60v packs for it (and the lawnmower, I suppose, since they can take advantage of the extra juice), and 20v packs for everything else.

Everything is cross compatible, with the one exception of the snowblower, so we’re all set.

My experience with the 12v drill heavily biased me towards sticking with DeWalt.

I won’t tell anyone to buy DeWalt or Milwaukee, or any other brand. You’ll have to make that decision got yourself. I don’t have any strong feelings about other brands because I simply don’t have the experience with them to have an opinion… Except Ryobi. Fuck Ryobi. My brother used Ryobi for a long time, and he had nothing good to say about them besides the fact that their tools are cheap. They’re cheap in every way. You’ll spend more trying to keep them working than you’ll spend simply by buying better tools. Don’t do it.

We’re basically the same age. That’s entertaining to me. I can’t really explain why, it just is.

I want to strongly express that I do understand where you’re coming from. I get it.

I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.

At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That’s fine, it’s what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.

I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.

I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I’m sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.

At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You’re articulate and well spoken and you’ve been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.

Be well.

Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.

I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you’re instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you’re there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn’t be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn’t need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn’t necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier’s and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up “unemployed” (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare…

People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they’re forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don’t have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.

As much as I don’t agree with you, I understand what you’re driving at. You’re stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don’t freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I’m not angry about it, it’s a fact. All I’m trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.

Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It’s fine. I don’t take offense. I know it won’t happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won’t allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our “jobs” which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.

It won’t happen, they won’t let it.

Work (verb): “be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work.”

No mention of compensation or pay.

For your nurse example, I know nurses that would absolutely do it for free, they enjoy working with their patients and helping them.

For me, I work in IT, if I didn’t need to make money to live, I would still do what I do without pay, simply to help others with their complex computer problems.

Just because you don’t “get” it, and/or, can’t understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t something that many of us would take on. A lot of blue collar workers and even many white collar workers (especially non-owner/non-management types), just want to live a life that they can be proud of. We need to earn money to pay for the things that allow us to continue to live, but beyond that, couldn’t give any less of a shit about money.

Your world view is flawed, your understanding of the collective consciousness of workers is incorrect.

The jobs that would have nobody working them, would be jobs that are generally horrible to do. Especially toxic work environments, usually due to bad management. Making people’s lives horrible because you treat them like trash would be a death sentence, because if people don’t need to work for you to live, and you treat them like human garbage, then you will have nobody working for you.

These principles are pretty well founded. There are communities that have survived with little to no money or transactions happening (mainly only when dealing with outsiders), where members of the community do some sort of work for the community (maybe farming, plumbing, electrical, construction, etc) with no direct compensation, and in return, they gain all the benefits of the community. Hot meals, a warm home, etc.

These communes have existed, usually they’re associated with extreme isolation and other such conditions, but they take care of eachother without the need for any monetary system.

In many first world countries, the USA especially, people are isolated from eachother. Each person is so aggressively independent that a monetary system is basically a requirement to answer the question of “what’s in it for me?” In a more community focused setting, you pay it forward at every step. You do whatever work for the people in the community, and the community at large “pays” you back with their services and hospitality. This is not a question, it is an expectation of such members of a community like that.

For my work, my “boss”/manager is basically setting up and managing systems that I can use to help people with their issues, so I can focus on what I’m good at. Aside from the money that changes hands because we all need to pay rent and buy food, our jobs wouldn’t change under a system that has no monetary system. There’s still a demand and we fulfill that demand as best we can.

We’ll never get to the level of community we would need to get away from money systems unless that money system entirely crashes, and people keep doing their jobs for free to make sure that everything doesn’t go down with the money system.

Our money system, with the global banks and fiat currency, is basically a bubble. It is obligated to continue to grow or it will collapse. I won’t go into detail as to why, since this post is long enough, but needless to say, that kind of system is destined to fail since continual growth indefinitely is an unsustainable system. It’s only a matter of time. One decent documentary I know of on the subject, for further learning, is called “money as debt”. Take a look if you want to know more about our collective monetary systems. (Most of the world is using the same concepts and ideas in their money systems though that specific one, IIRC, is focused on the American money system)

I’m definitely not rich. Not by a long shot. I might not be poor, but compared to the rich, I’m very poor.

I feel like, insane statements like “nobody will work if they don’t earn money from it” or similar drivel is entirely derived from the rich asshole capitalists own minds. What they mean to say is that they wouldn’t, and can’t imagine anyone would want to work if not for the accumulation of wealth. They lack imagination.

The key differentiator is that us (relative) poors need to work to live. If we didn’t need to work to live, many still would, simply to help others. I certainly would.

Not sure what your point is old man, but I can’t get the freedom that the rich enjoy without being rich.

Deluding myself into a state of bliss when the mortgage is due doesn’t help anyone, especially me.

Such as a twice impeached convicted felon?

Wait, that one hasn’t happened yet. He needs to get re-elected before I can say this.

I hope I don’t get the opportunity to say it, but you never know.

That sounds like something that should be reported to the authorities.

Could be Trump.

I get what you’re saying here and bluntly, those people are not scientists. If you neither want to go and earn the knowledge necessary to be an authority on the subject, nor listen to those that are, then maybe you should shut the fuck up.

I’ll be fair in saying that CO2 is not the only contributor to global climate change. The environment is a complex intermingling of a lot of different influences. With that said, this is something we know for a fact, at the very least, does not help. Alternatives exist for almost every case. Why stick with the “clearly not helping” method, than going with the “at least we’re trying” alternative?

Disclaimer, I haven’t earned the title of expert in the subject, I just try to listen to those who have earned that title. I am not nearly as up to date on the subject as some others, so I invite someone to expand and/or correct any of my statements who knows the material better than me. Such is the scientific method. Lively discussion and debate culminating in studies and tests to determine who is wrong… (Spoiler, sometimes everyone is wrong)

Regardless, IMO, anyone denying a change based on the stated reasons, is trying to serve their own interests. Whether that’s enabling them to contribute to make poor decisions, or maybe they have something to gain by trying to block any progress away from fossil fuels. Maybe they own stock in a petrol company. Who knows?

To me, it’s just a bad faith argument.

I remember when it was so cold out that my car overheated in the winter because all of the coolant (rated to below zero Fahrenheit), froze. Now, I’m damn near blasting the AC in winter because it’s so damn warm.

Come change is happening. IDK how much more proof people really need… The argument of winter still being cold isn’t applicable anymore.

Wasn’t fascism modelled after early feudalism?

There were obvious differences, fascism has more nationalism and racism, IMO, but at the core, aren’t they extremely similar?

I’m no expert on either. I just know enough to get myself into (and hopefully out of) trouble in these discussions.

From the peanut gallery, aka me… Most business are run under a more fascist principle.

I’m not talking about how the business operates in the market, or whatever… I’m talking about internal organizational behaviour.

Things are often very “my way or the highway”, with management, owners, etc.

Of course, not all businesses, but most follow some fairly fascist ideologies. They’ll tell you where to be, what to bring, what to do, when to stop… And hey, where are your papers? … I mean… Where is your company issued identification card?

They’ll watch what you’re doing, monitor and surveil you as much as they are legally allowed, govern every moment that they can, of every day you’re working there.

Capitalism and the pursuit of profit is their objective, the governance is fascist.

Business leaders engage in fascism.

… Why are we surprised that this brain rot is leaking out into actual politics? Trump is literally known for running businesses… Mostly into the ground/bankruptcy, but still. His whole thing is him being the boss. The ruler and Lord dictator over his tiny island. How are we so surprised that he’s a fascist? Shocked picachu

The best move the Nazis made was convincing everyone that yeah, the Nazis lost and are gone forever… They’re literally hiding in plain sight.

https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/6879/a-number-one-egg-bread/

There’s also cake that uses yeast/leavening:

https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/215136/drozdzowka-polish-yeast-plum-cake/

So I’m pretty sure the ingredient angle is out, unless you want to go by proportion of sugar/flour/whatever, which is a much more involved discussion, but IMO, will also be a fruitless one…

I don’t think ingredients are the dividing line here between cakes/breads, IMO, it might be texture/consistency of the loaf, but even that’s a hard sell. There are some very dense breads and some very airy cakes.

I’m more leaning towards “cake” being a label we put on bread products when we deem it appropriate.

The fact that a lot of this was defined by medieval standards, where people did some pretty strange things, especially with naming, IMO, is the root of the problem. Today, as we create new things we have specific terms for them that defines that thing and limits on what the thing is and isn’t. A lot of scientific naming has been refined in the last century because of the bad/inaccurate naming of things, mainly because they were named and defined well before we had the technology to properly understand what we were looking at.

Culinary arts, which can be scientific, but the naming certainly isn’t, is not an exact science. If you take either of the above recipes and add an extra quarter cup of flour or something to either, it probably won’t ruin the product. It might make it taste different than intended, but probably not ruined.

In all the difference between cake and bread is blurry at best. At worst, cake is just a specific type of bread product, which is defined fairly loosely by how we feel about it.

As a related fact, muffins and cupcakes have been in a war for which one is better for you. Cupcakes can have fewer calories, but muffins seem to have better marketing, so people feel like they’re better/more healthy, than eating cupcakes.

I dunno, I’m just some guy.

Egg bread exists.

What’s your argument about eggs now?

That’s what is supposed to happen. Entry jobs and internships are supposed to be for inexperienced employees to learn the job. You can have all the book experience in the world from college/uni, but if you’ve never worked in the industry on a team, you’re going to need to learn a few things. Just giving them jobs and then letting them swim or not is not something that should be the norm.

You sound like a hiring manager that puts x years of experience required on an entry level position.

I believe your coworker is right to some extent. Getting a degree is a lot of work. It demonstrates your ability to do work and get things done… Among other things.

Having any degree/post secondary diploma, generally says you have the ability to work on something without being forced into it. IMO, HS is generally expected and more or less forced on everyone, so it doesn’t really count.

While I believe that’s the motivation behind needing a degree to get a job, I also, personally, don’t agree with it. There’s plenty of hardworking people who never even considered college/uni after HS. Some of them are much more motivated and hardworking than the people I knew from my time in college.

I work in IT, and see degree requirements on all sorts of job postings. It’s bullshit, since there’s haven’t been IT centric degrees until very recently, outside of CS/development. Most of these jobs don’t require any programming whatsoever. They’ll be for helpdesk, system administration, networking, etc. Programming knowhow might help but it’s definitely not required. I don’t need Java, or C++, or Python, or any other language to know how to click buttons on dialogs in Windows.

I think that’s the joke.

While the original might be marginally less bad, they’re both really bad.