My parents raised me to always say “yes sir” and “no ma’am”, and I automatically say it to service workers and just about anyone with whom I’m not close that I interact with. I noticed recently that I had misgendered a cashier when saying something like “no thank you, ma’am” based on their appearing AFAB, but on a future visit to the store they had added their pronouns (they) to their name tag. I would feel bad if their interaction with me was something they will remember when feeling down. This particular person has a fairly androgynous haircut/look and wears a store uniform, so there’s no gender clue there.
I am thinking I need to just stop saying “sir” and “ma’am” altogether, but I like the politeness and I don’t know how I would replace it in a gender-neutral way. Is there anything better than just dropping it entirely?
For background I’m a millennial and more than happy to use people’s correct pronouns if I know them!
Yes please and no thank you
I do that too, of course, but “sir” and “ma’am” are a bit more formally polite by showing deference.
Stop showing deference. No gods, no masters!
[preface: I got mad respect for you for wanting to find a solution here that works for everyone. Top-shelf stuff right there. The following is adding detail and not to berate you and I want to make sure that’s out there.]
People really don’t mind either way. The bar is on the floor with how conservatives are acting these days so simply respecting their pronouns will let them feel so much more human.
There are two kinds of respect I’ve experienced: the first is simply treating others kindly, fairly, and with patience and consideration. The second “formal politeness” is more often demanded than earned and it’s always based on stuff like “I’m older than you” because they don’t have anything else going for them. That deference is meant to make anyone who doesn’t treat them as special out to be “impolite” so they don’t need to back-up their decisions.
Most decent people don’t want the second kind of respect. I know for me it makes me feel icky thinking that someone has muted themselves because they’re afraid of making me angry. Mind you I don’t think poorly of anyone who says it, ever, because they’re just doing what they were taught and trying to be polite.
Most decent people don’t want the second kind of respect. I know for me it makes me feel icky thinking that someone has muted themselves because they’re afraid of making me angry. Mind you I don’t think poorly of anyone who says it, ever, because they’re just doing what they were taught and trying to be polite.
Strong agree. I do not want to be shown deference if I’m not in an explicit position of authority and I do now want to shown respect if I haven’t earned it. (I also resent being asked to show deference or respect when it isn’t merited.) General politeness, like please and thank you, goes a long way toward demonstrating that you respect the person as an equal, which feels much more respectful to me than imposing some kind of arbitrary implied hierarchy of unearned respect between strangers.
unearned respect
I suspect this here is where the break is. I don’t think respect needs to be earned, I think all humans, all creatures, all things are worthy of respect by default. Sure, you can lose respect, but the default interaction with a stranger should be a respectful one.
I actually totally agree. All people should begin worthy of our respect simply because we are humans, and our language should reflect that. Where the break is for me is that (again, for me) honorifics and similar terms imply hierarchical respect or deference, and that’s where the “earned respect” comes in. My respect for you as an equal is yours to lose; my respect for you as superior is yours to earn. In my language community, regular old please and thank you communicate the first kind, while honorifics convey the second.
I feel the words sir and ma’am imply the degree of formality of the conversation rather than social hierarchy of the participants. I think it appropriate for a boss, customer, teacher, coach, judge, or adult to address a worker, waiter, student, player, litigant, or child as “sir” or “ma’am” , “Mister” or “Miss” until they have reached a certain degree of social familiarity justifying less formal language.
And it’s always demanded in completely unrelated ways, too. When you can’t be right or at least explain yourself, be a lil’ bitch.
“They’re older so you have to suck up.”
- When ya got nothing left but the passage of time and a society that generally tries to keep you from dying…
“I’ve been doing this thing longer so I’m better.”
- Only perfect practice makes perfect. You can suck at a thing for a real long time.
“They have more money so they’re smarter.”
- We don’t have time for all the ways that’s false.
I wouldn’t say “deference” accurately describes my intent when using the terms, but my usage is probably a bit atypical.
I use them in much the same manner as a judge would use them when addressing a litigant, or a teacher might use them when addressing a student: to indicate a respectful and welcoming mentality, but without inviting familiarity. When I am happy you are here right now, but I don’t particularly want to be your friend.
I speak a language with a formal you and am constantly trying to use it to tell people to back off, but it doesn’t really work like that. That’s absolutely what I do in English with ma’am/sir though.
I used to work in a call center for an insurance company, so people would get upset and shitty with us. My default to “reset” politeness was to allow a couple beats of silence, then say “well sir/ma’am, xyz is what I can do to help you. Would you like my help?” It worked about 90% of the time, but drawing the silence out longer and adding more audibly sarcastic sugar on the sir/ma’am would generally work at either getting them in line or provoking them enough to cross the line so we could hang up on them.
I speak some German and Spanish with the formal You (Sie and Usted) and it’s handy but adds complication as a learner.
At least in Star Trek “Sir” wasn’t a gendered salutation. I don’t know about American society in general.
To me, please and thank you are kind of the poster children for politeness. Like you can’t be polite without them.
Btw are you in the US? I’m in Canada and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say yes sir/no ma’am sincerely.
I am, yes. It’s not uncommon in the South, and among military/former/family of.
Comrade.
I could do that!
I’d say change as you like, but an accidental misgender is not an offensive action, unto itself. As in, we should hope to not do it, but done accidentally is not malice.
Again, we can hope to do a whole lot better than just-above-malice, but you shouldn’t feel guilt.
Thank you for the reply.
Yeah think of it like stepping on someone’s foot in a crowd. It hurts but it happens.
It would be nice if we could get a consensus gender neutral formal honorific. But it’s pulling teeth to get everyone on board with polite respect in using gender neutral pronouns at all. People be trippin.
Formal honorifics are important. They’re about giving verbal respect until familiarity builds enough to bypass the barrier of the unknown.
Yeah, the origins of honorifics were bound into classist malarkey, but they haven’t stayed there. Once we got to the point where folks were ma’aming and sirring everyone, it became something useful. A way of navigating the complex layers of social interaction, and generating a gradual path from stranger to friend.
Sir and ma’am are equalizers when used broadly. They set everyone respected individual by default. I would love a third, or even more, term/terms to be added to that for our neighbors that don’t fit the binary.
Good honorifics are the foundation of maintaining good behavior towards everyone
That would be my ideal outcome. I haven’t seen a neo-pronoun type of thing for this situation, sadly. It’s tough to impose new rules on a language via fiat anyway, so it probably wouldn’t catch on.
Sidestepping cultural appropriation, I would go with “sama” for the timebeing. It is a Japanese honorific. They did theirs right, most of their common honorifics are genderless. Hell, the really common ones can be used to refer to literally anything to show respect.
https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-honorifics/#toc_5
I think it’s because a lot of queer folks fall where I do on honorifics. It’s not that they’re outdated. It’s that formality is disrespect with a power difference. I use professional formality as neutral formal. Once I start calling someone sir or ma’am they’re getting “with all due respect [none]” as well, or i acknowledge that I’ve fucked up and they can’t call me out so I use it to elevate them back. So really it serves as the back foot to fall to.
And like I’d love to see some theory and history of how we wound up like this because I know that culture has shifted this way, but we are some of the first to drop traditional formality. I wouldn’t be shocked if it was dropped due to the familial tone of our community or the anarchic influences on us.
I do appreciate seeing your input on all of it because it’s always felt stuffy and distancing to me, and while i understand to use it as a form of cultural respect for certain groups, I didn’t really get why some young people may still want it
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rare german w, our honorific form is gender neutral! (kinda its a little more complex, but its easy to use in a gender neutral way) (the rest of our language isn’t though, just the honorifics are)
Wait, what’s the gender neutralish German honorific?
I think they mean “Sie”, which later for decapitalised as “sie” for female
Oh! I was thinking maybe “geerhte” but that makes way more sense. Duh.
I think just go the Invader Zim route and infer honorifics by height.
“Yes, my tallest” and “forgive me, my tallest” should cover you in most yes/no situations.
And if they’re not taller than you? Well then they’re less intelligent, so you can turn up your nose in scorn and look over heads until they go away.
I learned a lot of about social interaction from that show.
Funny, but problematic. I know it’s a joke.
I like the idea to use unexpected cumpliment, as “my connoisseur”, “my most esteemed”, “my commander”, “my captain”, “my sibling”, “my comrade”, “boss”, “friend”, or something.
Pointing at physical characteristics? Not as amazing.
Come to brasil where people are called champion, master, professor, doctor, or warrior.
Saying thanks to the cashier? “Thanks, doctor”
Edit: But Portuguese is gendered so I guess this doesn’t avoid the original problem… except in English it would
Commander, captain, uncle, brother, comrade, Chief, big friend Bring us down another round
I quite like the idea of something in the spirit of “yes my good fellow”, with fellow obviously being a bit too masculine despite its chuminess.
What about using some generic gender neutral names like Robin or Quinn (even if their name isn’t Robin or Quinn):
“Yes my good Robin” or “Yes my good Quinn”
Pointing at physical characteristics? Not as amazing.
Worse? Or better?
If they are short do you use “Short <king/queen/sovereign>” instead?
No, you call them “shorty” and make wild claims about it being their birthday
I don’t know where you grew up, but this sounds like “southern hospitality.” I’m a gen-x New Englander, and it always creeped me out because I suspected it originated from slavery, and it seems I was right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_hospitality
Sir and ma’am are so far divorced from any of that as to be absurd.
Nor is polite formality a purely southern thing at all. People up north used to teach their kids to sir and ma’am their teachers too.
I can relate! Thank you for helping put a reason behind the ick I was instinctively feeling!!
I don’t think that kind of thing is unique to the South nor its link to slavery. In a larger scope, it’s a deference to class hierarchy. George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia, talking about his experience in socialist Barcelona during the Spanish Civil War:
Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said ‘Señor’ or ‘Don’ or even ‘Usted’; everyone called everyone else ‘Comrade’ and ‘Thou’, and said ‘Salud!’ instead of ‘Buenos días’. Tipping was forbidden by law; almost my first experience was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy.
Don’t worry about it.
When someone corrects you, refer to them as they’ve asked you to and if they haven’t or weren’t clear, ask them how they’d like to be called.
E: In my experience it speaks more powerfully when you can be wrong, apologize and correct the mistake with understanding and grace than when you just drill the agender language till its rote.
No one identifies as chief or boss.
This is a helpful reply; thank you.
I’ll often just go for a “thank you kindly!”. It has the same flow.
That IS pretty good…
Appreciate the recognition on your part!
My wife actually called me out on my one worded answers, as the way I say it (my tone of voice), it comes off very unfriendly or cold.
Before –
“Do you want more water?”
Me: “Yep.” (Cold silence.)
Now –
“Do you want more water?”
Me: “Yes please! Thank you so much.”
I absolutely noticed a difference by just adding more words makes me come off less hostile and more polite.
That’s great. I recognize that folks with whom I interact at their work are often treated indifferently at best, and I like to make their day a little better if I can.
Please and thank yous are enough to be polite to strangers.
“Good morning/day/evening” or something similar always seemed to be appreciated and “Have a nice/great day/week/weekend/…” works quite well in most situations where you or other people are leaving too.
I’m often on the opposite side of your cashier experience.
For me personally, I appreciate the polite gesture and understand the automatic nature it can be for some, especially southerners. So unless I can tell that I’m being “sir’d” with someone who has clocked me and wants to show their smoothbrain, then I don’t care much.
That said, I like the general idea of treating everyone with a nonconfrontational politeness, so I’ve been replacing formal pronouns with chief, coach, Bud, comrade, etc. Its ended up being even more disarming for most, and has a nice side effect of reducing the amount that I get misgendered.
Hope it helps, Have a great day chief!
It does, thanks Bud!
Thanks, boss.
I’m from NZ so my go to is “mate” but having lived in the UK and Ireland for nearly ten years, holy crap do they have you covered with many fantastic options…
Darling - this is what old ladies at my local supermarket checkout prefer in East London. Dear - similar to above it is probably supposed to be said to someone younger than you Love - pronounced “Luv” is all England I think Boss - (or Bossman - but not relevant here) is a widespread London one. Duck - Often used in the Midlands, particularly around Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Pet - the North East, such as in Newcastle. My lover - the South West, particularly in Bristol and surrounding areas. Gaffer - maybe Irish?
The more obviously gendered ones are actually extensive too like Hen, Babs, Babes, Son, Chick, Flower, Laddie, Lassie, Bonnie, Doll.
Honourable mention for Twat - when you don’t want to be polite.
People who grew up here will have even more. To them I say, have I passed the Home Office “Life in the UK” test now?
With flying colours, me old strumpet
Poppet is my fave, Midlands I think
These are amazing. I’ve only heard a few of them before!
Nothing like going into a rough pub in Sheffield, and having the landlord ask, “what’ll it be love?”
All of these, maybe with the exception of duck and gaffer, if said in North America would be either not seen as gender neutral, or would be especially creepy if a man used it.
That’s cos yous are professional offence-takers 😂
Cos yer ma didn’t pay you enough attention as bairns
Or they just have different connotations here. Would it be acceptable for a man to go up to a woman he’s never met before and say “I’m in love with you” while she’s just doing her job? If you say yes, I have to wonder who of us was really raised wrong.
On what fucking planet would a sane bloke ever do that?!?
Oh, wait, you don’t have accessible mental healthcare for most people. As you were 😂
Man unable to comprehend that words can have different meanings in different countries, and is unable to understand analogy, more at 11
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Strangers shouldn’t expect you to know everything about them.
That’s probably fair.
An enby I encountered a fair bit back home would call everyone friend, and I might refer to people as folks. I am lucky I’m Australian, so mate also works.
Friend is good, but I’d feel a bit like I was in a cult, I think.
“Thanks, friend. By the way, you know who else is your friend? The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Let me tell you all about it.”
try talking to them as people, not service workers – friendly, sympathetic, understanding go much further than politeness (and, as a side note, pronouns don’t come up nearly as often when you’re talking with people rather than to people) – “Hello”, “Thank you”, “Yes, please”, “No, thanks”, “Sounds good”, “Sorry, but nope”, “Not today”, …
