Looks like my account was banned/restricted for the above interaction, have already sent the mods on world an email asking if they’d be willing to reverse that. Had an episode of psychosis a few months ago where I did say some offensive stuff, (understandably) got a 3 month ban on .lol for that, so could see my account having been flagged.
I uh, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to check others profiles to ensure we are correctly pronouning them… when making a throw away comment that is less than 10 words involving a ludicrously common saying. Jerboa does not show users pronouns. I could switch to an app that DOES show the pronouns, do any Lemmings have a recommendation for a free Lemmy mobile app that has that feature?
Edit: Edie chimed in, Jerboa does show pronouns. It’s a formatting issue with mobile vs browser (She has them on individual text lines so they don’t appear on mobile).
Was just going to respond to the user in question to let them know I wasn’t purposefully trying to offend that individual, to discover I’m not able to post or make comments on world now, so figured I’d see what y’alls opinion on the matter is.
You weren’t misgendering; you were meming. Modifying one part of “the man, the myth, the X” to adapt it to the situation is fine and good, but when you start swapping out too much of it (“the X, the myth, the Y” – or worse, “the X, the Y, the Z”) you lose the reference.
Yeah that’s my thought. It’s an expression. I’ve said things like “c’mon man” to people IRL I know to be women, without complaint. If I was using the word “man” in this kind of way and the person I was saying it to asked me not to, I would of course respect their wishes and stop doing it to them, but I’ve not seen it happen before.
But a third person coming in to whinge when the person I was talking to had no complaint? 🙄
(As a side note, with this specific expression I quite like the alternative of “the ma’am…”. That helps it scan exactly the same as the original phrase.)
And other people deliberately use all of the “come on man” and “Hey mate” and “Dude is not gendered” explicitly at trans people, because it lets them get away with misgendering. So trans people, who experience that stuff every day, can be a little sensitive when someone does that, even if they aren’t doing it deliberately.
In this case, not knowing the person, and not having access to their pronouns, the comment was fine. But once you know it’s an issue, repeating it despite knowing it’s an issue is a shitty thing to do.
Usually when I make a mistake while trying to act in good faith, I apologize. Posting about the interaction without apology and flashing names of non-mods involved is not the way to correct your mistake, nor to garner sympathy.
I did apologize to the mod I emailed. Not looking for sympathy, frankly I was more interested from a technical perspective as to why her pronouns aren’t showing on Jerboa, but they were on the browser.
27·1 month agoBrowsers will collapse white space, line breaks are converted to spaces.
Jerboa does not collapse white space, and instead rendered the display name with the line breaks. But, one possible reason is that, the area for usernames/display names can only display 1 line, so all of the pronouns got cut off.
That wasn’t your question though. If a technical jerboa question is what you intended to ask, about 90% of your post didn’t need to be included and the question in the title needed to be very different.
As to your edit, I would not recommend PM’ing the user directly; that may be very unwelcome and further breach rules of that community. Personally, I would have asked the mods for a chance to edit my comment and apologize publicly. But with previous history of your self-described “psychosis”, if I were the mod I would be skeptical of your motivations.
Ya the admin of Blajah made a solid point that I should have anonymized the post, I rarely post/comment, so not super familiar with the etiquette. Definitely will keep that in mind in the future. & hey my person, there are a lot of severe mental disorders other than gender dysphoria that exist out there :|
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Doesn’t really matter here. The saying is “the man, the myth, the legend”. If you go changing every part of it you might as well have not said anything at all because it won’t make any sense.
The Ma’am the myth the legend is right there though :D
Agree. Some expressions become so iconic they get genderless. Just like sometimes it’s accept to use “man” and “dude” as a genderless exclamation
I once got a temporary ban on another platform for arguing/suggesting that dude has become genderless.
I know multiple woman that use “dude” that way, but some people are somewhat understandably sensitive on the topic of gender.
it depends a lot on context tbh, usually its fine but you can kinda tell when someone is calling you a dude to be an ass
Regardless of your opinion on whether dude has become genderless or not (I also use dude for my friends of any gender), the word is a gendered term that has become ubiquitous. If someone doesn’t want me to use “dude” referring to them, I won’t. It’s not good to assume, so until I know that someone doesn’t mind, I’m not going to use gendered terms contrary to their gender. I wouldn’t call a man “sis” or “girl” the same way I would women I’m friends with, unless I know that doesn’t make them uncomfortable. I wouldn’t call a woman “bro” or “guy” the same way I would men I’m friends with unless I checked. All of those terms are gender nonspecific for me, but they might make someone who doesn’t have my lived experience uncomfortable.
Exactly this.
I’m probably a bit further to the right than most on the fediverse with this opinion but…
I think, once you have been informed of someone’s pronouns, it’s flat out rude to not use them. I don’t know if it’s a banning issue but that’s for the moderators on your instance to decide or the instance the community is on. Even if you don’t agree with someone’s lifestyle, it’s just polite to address people the way they’d like to be addressed.
But surely there’s a difference between intentional misuse and accidental. I think banning someone for not looking up someone’s pronouns before a public interaction seems like pushing things a bit far here. I certainly am not checking such things. But, then in general when online I will use gender neutral wording because frankly, for online interactions someone’s rarely information that matters for the interaction. I don’t really need to know.
My view is, I think it is almost always clear when someone is being malicious and thus transphobic and when someone makes an honest mistake/did not know better. We, as a whole, really should be differentiating between obviously malicious and non-malicious cases.
Yaa that is similar to my viewpoint, though I am also a cis, white, blonde, blue eyed, tall, male, so my experiences/opinions are coming through the privilege lenses absolutely :| Having to deal with conversations like this all the time with “normies”, can imagine people who are deep into such social circles get tired of dealing with the acting-in-bad faith bullshitters.
If somebody corrects you about gender, just say woops, correct yourself, and move on. It’s an honest mistake, a simple fix, and nobody should be offended. Especially online. If they are still offended, it’s because they want to be.
I think the issue here is that it wasn’t a case of “somebody corrects you about their gender”. It was “a third unrelated person comes in and rudely yells at you that you should have already known not to use a turn of phrase”.
The user’s pronouns were in her username, OP’s client just doesn’t display additional lines.
Especially since in this case it was not even the person that was misgendered that called it out. Maybe the original person doesn’t even care.
I don’t think it’s necessary to check every profile for potential pitfalls when interacting with them. But honestly, in this case there is an obvious transgender flag in the profile name that should make you at least question your first assumption.
Do trans men have a different flag?
I don’t think there is. The transgender flag is for anyone that is trans. There are transfemme and transmasc specific flags (though they aren’t in Unicode so they can’t be used like I do the trans flag). Do note that transfemme / -masc does not mean transgender woman and man, they describe how one would like to present and/or express themselves.
What percentage of the populace do you think knows what the transgender flag looks like? :|
is this ragebait or something
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What do your racist ideas of a homogenous global south with no queers have to do with this. Literally why say this.
You said it yourself in this comment. There aren’t queers there. Well, there are. They just aren’t treated very well if they’re open about it, to my knowledge. Logically, if a culture is “not there”, or in this context, being legally and culturally suppressed, I doubt there is going to be much awareness about things like which letters in LGBTQ+ corresponds to which flag. Id be happy to read something that you think would be enlightening on the subject.
Shut the fuck up cracker, there’s no “reading” which can cover such vastly different regions of the world with their own queer histories. By bringing up your orientalist ideas of the global south you’re only proving your own stupidity. You clearly exist in a context in which the trans flag is common and a clear indicator to pay special regards to that user’s pronouns, and instead of just apologizing and moving on you’re making a mockery of yourself by trying to use your own racism to disguise your transphobia.
Someone got mad enough to report you for this lmaooooo
If the trans flag was common to see and commonly talked about in Hamburgerland, I imagine I would have been more aware of what it meant. You’re calling me racist… While using a racial slur?
Ok, let’s whip out some facts. Of the countries in Asia where gay marriage is legal (different from transgender folk, yes I am aware, but I think we can all agree gays are a lot more accepted these days than trans people), there are 3. Nepal, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and soon Thailand. In Africa, there’s just one, South Africa. In the middle east, just Israel (maybe that’s how they keep getting American weapon shipments, they have a lock in the US gay Mafia).
Of course, in many more Asian/African countries than the ones I listed, it isn’t ILLEGAL to have same sex intercourse*. However feel that’s a decent metric for acceptance (and, by extension, awareness) of the various LGBTQ+ life styles.
To my knowledge
Your “knowledge” is years of reddit threads and a lifetime of immersion in US imperial propaganda meant to dehumanize its enemies while justifying its own endless violent interventions.
Before lgbtq rights, the excuse was spreading democracy, and before that it was “bringing civillization.” The truth is, the US doesn’t give a shit about their rights, it only cares about using them as an excuse for mass murder. They actively make life more dangerous for queer people around the world by using queerness as a human shield for their activities, same as Isreal does with jewishness, tying them together in the eyes of a casual observer, lying to its victims that “we are bombing you because you are homophobic/antisemetic and we are Jewish/queer” while it simply bombs them for their land and resources.
America does not defend queer people, it puppets them into the line of fire.
It’d be like if I kept you in a basement for 20 years, then murdered an entire neighborhood of people, then put up a billboard saying “I did this so ToucheGoodSir could have a place to live, because I love him.”
And then other people looked at that billboard and said “wow, that ShimmeringKoi sure treats his friends well.”
On top of all that America also just actively persecutes queer people. People will say “oh that’s just the republicans” as if that isn’t half the country and it’s not just the republicans, but a large group of democrats. Then they’ll say “oh, but we’re not as bad as [enemy of the week]” which funnily enough is actually a whatabouterismerino, but also not really a valid argument if you’re saying it’s okay to bomb a country if they’re mean to queer people. So it’s okay to be kinda mean to queer people?
On top of that there’s also the fact that some of the US’ closest allies are countries like Saudi Arabia, not to mention the many far right anti-lgbtq dictators the state has installed over the years.
On top of that the US has only recently gotten “good” on queer rights. Homosexuality wasn’t decriminalised in the whole of the US until 2003 (and we’re not talking some weird little forgotten law, it wasn’t until a supreme court decision forced several states to finally stop being bigoted.)
At the same time the GDR had decriminalised homosexuality by 1957 and with constitutional reform fully legal by 1968
The GDR did this despite inheriting the nazis legal code (according to a wikipedia source which I will not fact check.)
Would it have been acceptable, nay morally right, for the GDR to bomb the US?
definitely, but not just because of da gays
You = no brain
Therefore you should shut up forever
Most folks on the planet are Indian, Chinese, or in an Islamic country of some sort. Now do tell, dear blakeus12. How do all of those cultures treat LGBTQ+ people :|
China has cities bigger than New York that are pretty trans-positive. These entities aren’t monolithic in their values, and in fact I would say they are more diverse in their values for better and for worse, compared to the US. What you are referring to is a cartoon perspective on these ~dozen countries spoon fed to you by western chauvinists.
Ha, there it is, couldn’t resist propagandizing for long using the same excuse currently being used to justify the genocide of Palsetinians
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Most folks on the planet are Indian, Chinese, or in an Islamic country of some sort. Now do tell, dear blakeus12. How do all of those cultures treat LGBTQ+ people :|
I’ve lived in at least one of the countries you’ve mentioned. LGBTQ+ people exist and live in the same capacity they do in western Europe and North America. It seems ridiculous for a westerner to try to implicate global majority countries for queerphobia when the US and UK are currently on a trans exterminatory cultural rampage. Stones in glass houses shit.
That was definitely a broad generalization, I’ll readily admit that. However, I don’t think that my point would be incorrect if we started trying to dig into the statistics. There is a reason that international conglomerates change all their social media stuff to have a pride flag during pride month in some countries, but not others. I think it is telling that queer cultures were able to develop to the extent that they have to even make the possibility of the current exterminatory cultural rampage a thing.
“According to a Pew survey, acceptance of homosexuality in India increased by 22 percentage points to 37 percent between 2013 and 2019. But same-sex couples often face harassment in many Indian communities, whether Hindu, Muslim or Christian.”
“A poll in July 2024 by the William Institute found that 52% of Chinese agreed that same-sex couples should be able to marry. As of at least 2023, Chinese public attitudes towards the LGBTQI community continues to become increasingly favorable.”
“The rights and freedoms of LGBT citizens are strongly influenced by the prevailing cultural traditions and religious mores of people living in the region – particularly Islam. All same-sex activity is legal in Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, and Turkey.”
Definitely higher than my initial claim of 5% awareness globally of the trans flag based off this.
Most folks on the planet are Indian, Chinese, or in an Islamic country of some sort.
Are you seriously doing a Dawkins-style “Dear Muslima” concern trolling attempt? Disgusting.
Are you saying that fundamentalist Islamic culture is friendly towards the LGBTQ+ community?
Better than yanks
They also have hypersonic missiles to kill you when you continue slandering them
Most of it, but that has nothing to do with you and is just a meagre deflection. The right response would have been “whoops my bad, didn’t notice that, I’ll do better next time” or a variation thereof.
Shifting the discussion as you are trying to do is just poor behaviour that makes your alleged genuine questions seem much less so. Sort of how like when I misgender someone I don’t go and make a big fuss about it, dig my heels in and try to start a discussion about morality or expectations. I correct my mistake and thank the person for informing me of it. It’s not a big deal unless you make it one, which you’ve doneThe online percentage.
well if you didn’t know now you do and can avoid this kind of interaction again if your so worried about it
65% is my guess.
Globally? Dawg… how many countries in Asia and Africa is gay marriage even legal in, let alone some semblance and awareness of transgenderism.
Not globally, but on lemmy. I assumed that’s what you meant.
I think you shouldn’t assume everyone on the internet to be a man. It is misogynistic. I don’t think there would be anything wrong with e.g. referring gender neutrally to someone who turns out to be a woman because you didn’t check her profile which says she’s a woman, but it is annoying to see people assume everyone on the internet to be male. I’ve especially experienced this in more techy communities which definitely seems like sexist stereotyping to me.
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This is deeply shitty. If you’re right that >80% of people on Lemmy are men (I’m not sure I buy that), then it’s even worse to assume everyone is a man. What you’re doing is chasing off the already extremely outnumbered non-men. If you want this place to be welcoming to people who aren’t men, then you need to change your behavior.
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does more to chase people away than what I said
If it means you leave and take your horrible take with you, I’m all for it.
Now I see why a lot of people block hexbear.
Right right, which is why a good majority of instances have entirely defederated from hexbear.
Is it me who’s in the terrible instance that most people hate? No, no, it must be that they are all the hated people!
Weird, all those instances are perfectly content to allow fascists on their instances. I wonder if these two things are related? No, no, better just keep posting like a redditor and never bother with introspection.
Yeah no, hexbear is simply an awful place to go which gets closer and closer to a echo chamber every day. But do keep on telling people to have some introspection without any yourself.
which is why a good majority of instances have entirely defederated from hexbear.
Being a selfish liberal with bad takes that can’t handle pushback from the left is common, yes.
Is it me who’s in the terrible instance
Lots of terrible things are very popular. Are you going to tell me that McDonald’s is the pinnacle of fine dining, too?
Yeah, it could only be selfish liberals right? Get over yourself.
It’s sexist because you assume male to be the default, just like the assumption that white is the default skin color is racist. The behavior outlined by the user above you follows from this thinking. Driving non-men away is a result of this behavior, which is the result of the sexist attitude that it’s okay to assume everyone online (or on Lemmy) is a man.
The only people driven away by eir comment are misogynists.
If that comment would chase you away, then I think it would be good for you to be chased away
Ok, then try your comment again. What is it that you’re saying here?
Rule #21 of the internet: everyone is a guy
Addition 1: every women is actually a guy
Addition 2: every kid is an 18+ guy
Addition 3: little girls are FBI Agents
What about the dogs on the Internet? I thought everyone was actually a dog.
Yes, but it’s a guy dog.
Just stop using gender specific pronouns at all. Makes things much simpler
This is what I try to do. This has been made slightly more difficult after “they” became a pronoun in its own right. I’ve only had one person get upset by my using “they” before knowing their preferred pronouns though, and when my intent was clarified it was fine. But like damn what other default pronoun exists? I guess this is what getting old feels like, it’s not like Iwant to be a boomer about this.
I use they/them as a default. I’ll catch myself in using them and go “wait, what is this persons pronouns” and check, on platforms like Lemmy that have it, their display name for pronouns, and if there aren’t any, then bio. If neither have any pronouns I’ll use they/them. If there are pronouns I will not use they/them unless listed.
To clarify, I’ve never had anyone online get upset with me using they/them, it’s only been in person, after hearing about my conversation with someone else from that second person. I was just left scratching my head with that one, like at least I was trying right? Ultimately though I’ve never experienced being misgendered, by accident or intentionally, so idk how it feels, idk how it feels after the thousandth time, and so I can’t really be mad about it back you know? I was just more sad that the default globally applicable pronoun wasn’t anymore, even if it usually still is.
i find this very easy on lemmy, in english. i’m usually talking to folks more than about them. if i do want to talk about someone, i’ll check their profile, or default to ‘they’ if data is lacking, but it’s a rare enough thing so as to be little burden.
What app do you use? Last I checked, pronouns are part of display names for Hexbear users. You shouldn’t have to check profiles. That’s the whole point of them being included in display names. Your app would ideally just respect display names and it would require no extra effort on your part to gender people correctly.
Jerboa, made an edit on the post asking for a free Lemmy mobile recommendation that has the feature.
Use Thunder. Its on Fdroid. Or you can grab it straight from Github with Obtanium.
I’m on jerbora as well and can see the previous person’s pronouns, but it could be an instance specific thing.
I checked on my desktop, they were appearing on there ??
Jerboa is honoring the newlines in my display name (whereas web browsers will just substitute newlines for spaces). I just didn’t think about the fact that it would only display one line.
This is what it should look like:
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, ze/hir, des/pair, null/void, none/use name, kitty]Fact checking and technical diagnosis, I appreciate your contributions to the platform.
Your app would ideally just respect display names and it would require no extra effort on your part to gender people correctly.
Even if pronouns aren’t displayed, it takes even less effort to use neutral pronouns for everyone unless you know otherwise.
And how does one do that while meming “the man, the myth, the legend”?
They can find another line, or skip trying to be funny altogether if the only way they can think of is gendered and they can’t be arsed to check the gender of the person they’re talking to.
And lets be honest - it wasn’t that good a joke.
Either way, it really isn’t fucking difficult, and is definitely easier than whatever the fuck this mess is.
Mess seems like a strong word to use. So, to clarify, you’re saying that you are of the opinion that unless you’re sure of an internet strangers pronouns, you shouldn’t use gender specific cultural references to refer to them when making a joke?
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Always has been
I’m not even interested in the username of the person I’m responding to. I tend to ignore it completely unless there’s a comment like “lol, username checks out”.
There are very few times I will bother to check someones profile. They have to either say something so awesome that I want to see more, or have given a take so hot I want to see if they’re trolling or if this is standard behaviour for them.
While it looks like the whole Jerboa/“miscommunication” thing has been sorted out here I want to chime in to say that no, I don’t think that checking profiles for anything is a reasonable expectation.
You are supposed to do deep research on the person you’re commenting to…
I barely even read usernames, plus Voyager App doesn’t show profile bios, so even if I wanted to check their profile I can’t and I’m sure as fuck not using the mobile website to get the information.
Same. Voyager doesn’t show it, I’ll do my best, but I’m not going to feel bad when I miss
That’s why I just stick with they/them, anyone who gets annoyed about me using that isn’t worth the energy, it’s an anonymous message board, I don’t know you, that’s my purse!
Dumbass here gets it!
Remember kids, moron is a genderless word that can be applied to anyone!
That’s not an excuse nor justification for misgendering anyone, neutral pronouns exist, use them.
If you tell me I will use them, I’m not a mind reader, I’m a dumbass with an internet connection.
If you get upset by someone using non gender neutral pronouns in general speech I don’t think you’re old enough to be on the Internet, and if you are we need to raise the age of access.
It’s reasonable, especially if they got a trans flag in their name. But even if not, it’s one click and a swipe back.
This is why gender abolition should’ve won out.
I’m pretty apathetic to gender in general but I’ve had gender confirming surgery to be NB which I guess technically makes me trans and to be prefectly honest I’ve never felt more judged for it than by the lemmy LGBTQ+ community. The 50y/o southern man that was my nursing supervisor back when I was a new graduate was more respectful of my gender and lived experiences than these people. Honestly the thing they seem to hate most is specifically me expressing apathy for gender; I’ve mentioned that my transness expresses itself by not caring about the whole pronoun thing or needing to have any specific pronouns for myself personally, but that I understand it’s a matter of respect for others and I’ve literally gotten banned for saying that. Like almost exactly that. They’re absolutely hateful bastards for no reason other than that they’re upset and need everybody else to be upset too. I’m lucky I have a handful of supportive people irl because I sure asf wasn’t gonna find it here!
If you don’t mind answering, what sort of surgery did you get for a NB transition?
Removal of gendered aspects without any additions.
Going to dig through your comment history later, im curious to see what has been said o.o reminds me of the greentext of the black guy telling a story at a party of all white people, and he says the N word and a white girl asks him to not say that as it makes her uncomfortable and the black dude mentally is like “??? Are you fr?..”
Telling people not to do something when it makes you uncomfortable, for sure, that’s adulting 101. Hoooowever… Feel that shows how much social interaction that gal has actually had with African Americans outside of a professional setting… not much :|
It probably doesn’t help that I’m incredibly irreverent of pretty much everything. I got really into western esoteric spirituality this past year (its really been helping me with introspection and integrating my personality in ways that neither secular therapy or my fundie upbringing ever quite fully did on their own) but at the same time I refuse to take any religion seriously, especially not my own.
Anyway someone in a related community got upset at me for having my irreverent attitude because I was “culturally appropriating” tarot cards from PoC and like dude. Look up where that shit is from its Northern Italy where my family is from just two generations ago they were fresh off the boat when the War was starting. You’re appropriating tarot from me. And if you want to get into the specific spiritual / divinatory usage that’s even fucking whiter. The closest you’re gonna get to claiming cultural appropriation is if you go all the way back before the tarot to the mummy dust the hermetic order of the golden dawn were probably mixing into the coke they were snorting while making that shit the fuck up based on their judeo-christian / classical mythology crossover fanfiction.
People just wanna be mad about shit and at this point I really don’t have the energy to spend appeasing people who have already decided to be mad at me. Imma just be over here using these cards to let my subconscious tell me which level of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs I fucked up this week.
If any human gets upset about cultural appropriation, they’re not smart enough to continue engaging with. That whole karenesque idea should’ve died when it was about braids in white peoples hair.
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Drag agrees, Lemmy is very cruel to trans people. Drag gets so many people yelling at drag for using drag’s first person neopronouns. So many people insisting drag’s pronouns are third person and making it into an argument.
Drag threw me for a loop the first time drag replied to me. I assumed it was a bit at first because this is the Internet and all, but I looked at drag’s history to see what the story was, since it’s not like anyone gives an introduction before commenting.
Other than the pronouns, Drag’s posts are like anyone else’s. Nothing was trollish, and Drag has explained drag’s pronouns a few times. It’s interesting to see drag’s idea is to create something simpler, but as it is not very English in structure, it sounds very strange at first. I think I’ve gotten the idea now, though I have had to make a few corrections as I type this.
First, I think people should be able to be whoever they want to be, especially online, if they aren’t doing things to be jerks. Drag has not done anyone wrong that I’ve seen. So if Drag asks me to call drag by something, why wouldn’t I? Drag has engaged with me in a friendly way, so I owe drag the same.
Second, I enjoy it as a creative exercise. It keeps my mind engaged while writing what would otherwise be a bland reply. It’s kind of fun to see language experience some flexibility and evolution, and if it honestly makes Drag feel better about drag’s self, I can accommodate that. If you can’t abide that, just move on and let Drag live drag’s life.
Even though most of us are liberal here, it doesn’t mean we’re free of bias or not stuck in our own ways. Even if we don’t get something, it doesn’t hurt us to cooperate with someone that it does make sense to. That’s just my feelings though.
Based and I-also-have-over-a-thousand-US-dollars-of-bad-dragon-pilled.
I supposed I left myself open for something like this! 🤣
Oh I meant you’re based for being chill, and I myself have an unreasonable amount of dragon dildos hahahaha
Ahh, well from what I hear, they make a top quality product, so I’m glad you’re giving yourself the best!
